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purger202
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PostSubject: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:38 am

we got pwned in a clan scrim today Sad. but its all good as long as we learn from it guys. The reasons we lost were pretty straight forward nothing specific. Bad lane control, bad tactics, and inexperince with good clan tactics, .48 and 3 lane fb and stuff like that. So what can we do about it, well practice denying and last hitting in pubs yes yes its work but i don't care u should almost never be auto attacking except when your going for a quick push to take a tower. Always keep creeps between u and mirana/pudge. Thats what you can do about lane control. The other two main reasons are something that only practice with your team mates can fix, so no worries just keep playing, think about stratgey both team and solo. The upcoming tourney will be a great oppurtuinty for everyone to be observed and to recive constructive critiscm from the shamans.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:54 am

purger202 wrote:
we got pwned in a clan scrim today Sad. but its all good as long as we learn from it guys. The reasons we lost were pretty straight forward nothing specific. Bad lane control, bad tactics, and inexperince with good clan tactics, .48 and 3 lane fb and stuff like that. So what can we do about it, well practice denying and last hitting in pubs yes yes its work but i don't care u should almost never be auto attacking except when your going for a quick push to take a tower. Always keep creeps between u and mirana/pudge. Thats what you can do about lane control. The other two main reasons are something that only practice with your team mates can fix, so no worries just keep playing, think about stratgey both team and solo. The upcoming tourney will be a great oppurtuinty for everyone to be observed and to recive constructive critiscm from the shamans.
Who did y'all play?

Do we have a replay of the game? I'd love to check it out since I missed out on the action.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:56 am

GITW. We need more practice. It is expected from everyone that if we just started playing together that we will lose till we learn how to play as a team. I never got hooked by pudge until the last moment that everyone was dead and I was next to him but used lothars to run away and since I was with low hp he killed me. About POTM only once too and it was when we were doing roshan. Anyway, pudge was really good hooking, but as Corey said, stay next to creeps. We need to practice more, thats it.

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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:39 pm

purger202 wrote:
we got pwned in a clan scrim today Sad. but its all good as long as we learn from it guys. The reasons we lost were pretty straight forward nothing specific. Bad lane control, bad tactics, and inexperince with good clan tactics, .48 and 3 lane fb and stuff like that. So what can we do about it, well practice denying and last hitting in pubs yes yes its work but i don't care u should almost never be auto attacking except when your going for a quick push to take a tower. Always keep creeps between u and mirana/pudge. Thats what you can do about lane control. The other two main reasons are something that only practice with your team mates can fix, so no worries just keep playing, think about stratgey both team and solo. The upcoming tourney will be a great oppurtuinty for everyone to be observed and to recive constructive critiscm from the shamans.

What were the heroes and lanes?

Replay would be very helpful.....
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:42 pm

What were the heroes and lanes?

Replay would be very helpful.....[/quote]

Ok here is the replay http://hosted.filefront.com/purger202/. The Heros were... them(pudge,tiny,queen of pain,Vengeful spirit, Preistess of the moon)

Now when u watch the replay constructive critiscism only guys some of the players are really upset with how it went their preformance etc. But anyways we had another clan scrim later that day and it went a little better, we still lost but not nearly as badly.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:51 pm

Why was Clinkz in there....? In my opinion, he adds no synergy at all to the team. I guess he can be used for some nice DPS after a disable, but I think that's pretty much it. The centaur would have done much better jungling because he's practically made for it with return. Also, I'm thinking you guys used Slithice for her net as a disable, but she is pretty much useless against their QoP. Blink still works in net (I think), just the net remains when on her when she blinks. You guys really need to ward too, not only to prevent ganks, but to grab the runes. The version was 6.48 (right?) so the bottle was super buff. Rune-whoring would have been amazing for your NA (its good for any hero i guess).

You should probably add some AoE disables onto your team (umm.... Treat, Levithan, Warlock?, maybe even ES if u consider him a good AoE disable). Silencer would have been nice to prevent their combo nukes (Swap+Stun, Hook+Dismember+Rot, Blink+SoP+Wave, Avalanche+Toss, even against PoTM's Stun+Leap+Starfall). And why does everyone hate Death Prophet? Her silence is better than Drow's because it costs less mana and with Witchcraft the cooldown is really short. She has a nice nuke to harrass and higher base damage. Although Drow can orbwalk while DP can't, I feel that Drow's stats are a little bit weak. Drow also tends to get targeted more too. Their Vengeful also showed a great example of creep pulling, which is a good strategy for some people to learn if they jungle (and even if they don't).
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:55 pm

This is the replay for one of the clan matches played last night or the night before. There is another game that was played but don't know if the replay is up, don't think so though.

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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:33 pm

Renovatio. wrote:
This is the replay for one of the clan matches played last night or the night before. There is another game that was played but don't know if the replay is up, don't think so though.

ya i know the game ur talkin about reno if you saved i can throw it up, or I will try and get it off one of the other players.

Riv_o1d thanks for the critque. This is what i want to happen after the matches even if things get repeated its still a discussion and thats how things are going to improve. Clinkz was a bad descion so was slith. Our bans were also bad. These are all things we learned. As long as we learn lots i don't mind loosing a couple matches right now.

A lot of our players need a lot more practice and the more experinced players and shamans will figure out what kind of over all strategys work who can play what characters best etc. That being said if you have a suggestion for anything speak up even if your not a shaman or w/e. Even if your wrong sometimes you can at least learn why, and who knows you might have thought of something really valuable for the team.

First big step is the tourney will give everyone a really good idea of where they can improve what there doing well etc. So for the reffs and this is just a suggestion in addition to the ranking maybe if you can come up with a couple points for the players for example. If reno watches my game and he notices i am not aggresive enough he can point that out by saying at this point you could have gotten the kill if you took the chance. And he can say wow purger great job on last hitting keep it up. Stuff like that.

In regards to this game directly I think that our bans were a bit off and that showed dramatically in the game. Pudge and mirana are very dangerous especially to players less experinced with this level off play. So pudge will probally be on the ban next time. In terms of are picks Darth and I were trying to give the players on our team chars they were more comftarble with. That will not be a priority next time unless it is easy to do so. Learn to play multiple guys really well, thats all there is to it. Thanks for the comments so far both riv and reno lets keep it up and keep the comments coming as long as we continue to be polite about it.

Very Happy p.s. srry bout the wall of text lol!
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:59 pm

All good bro, as a matter of fact I want to thank you for proving your activity on the forum and trying to help the clan when it comes to clan matches among other things. Giving constructive suggestions or critiques (without offending, saying it in order to improve) are really good ways to point out what members should try to learn, or focus on doing more. Feel free to post as many things as you want and as long as you want.

By the way Riv, I'm glad you getting more involved with the forum and the clan itself. Really good comments you had made so far and as purger said, don't feel repressed to say something. You might not be sure about something, but maybe we can clear that doubt.

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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:07 pm

Pudge is probably not the best hero to ban. Make sure you ward to counter his ganks. Blinkers and silencers work well on him too. Slithice is also a great hero against pudge since you dodge hook (and dismember?) with mirror image. Good bans would be like QoP, PoTm, Nerub, BM (amazing hero, wonder why no one played him last game) and even people like viper. Warlock is also a great hero to have and to ban because of his heal and his stun ultimate. Most higher level play teams are based on AoE heroes and good combos that come with them. If you can decently play heroes like Enigma, Magnataur, Treat, Levithan and Warlock, you end up with double and triple kills all over the place (Magnus is pretty imbalanced IMO). You guys just have to work on overall gameplay and lane control with these heroes and you can dominate.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:11 pm

riv_01d wrote:
Pudge is probably not the best hero to ban. Make sure you ward to counter his ganks. Blinkers and silencers work well on him too. Slithice is also a great hero against pudge since you dodge hook (and dismember?) with mirror image. Good bans would be like QoP, PoTm, Nerub, BM (amazing hero, wonder why no one played him last game) and even people like viper. Warlock is also a great hero to have and to ban because of his heal and his stun ultimate. Most higher level play teams are based on AoE heroes and good combos that come with them. If you can decently play heroes like Enigma, Magnataur, Treat, Levithan and Warlock, you end up with double and triple kills all over the place (Magnus is pretty imbalanced IMO). You guys just have to work on overall gameplay and lane control with these heroes and you can dominate.
Right on the money.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:12 pm

riv_01d wrote:
Pudge is probably not the best hero to ban. Make sure you ward to counter his ganks. Blinkers and silencers work well on him too. Slithice is also a great hero against pudge since you dodge hook (and dismember?) with mirror image. Good bans would be like QoP, PoTm, Nerub, BM (amazing hero, wonder why no one played him last game) and even people like viper. Warlock is also a great hero to have and to ban because of his heal and his stun ultimate. Most higher level play teams are based on AoE heroes and good combos that come with them. If you can decently play heroes like Enigma, Magnataur, Treat, Levithan and Warlock, you end up with double and triple kills all over the place (Magnus is pretty imbalanced IMO). You guys just have to work on overall gameplay and lane control with these heroes and you can dominate.

Thats for sure. A strategy I did with arc (I think, dont remember very well) was that he would ulti with enigma and I would ulti with sand king. We got a triple kill really easily and we both ended up with full HP. Sadly it only happened once during the game, but it was devastating.

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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:22 pm

replay is posted on dota-allstars.com on front page btw.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:23 pm

darthcon101 wrote:
replay is posted on dota-allstars.com on front page btw.

sweet... I guess :S show the world how we lost Razz

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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:24 pm

Thats why I think Magnus is so imbalanced. Once he gets blink dagger, any 3+ man push by the other team will result in you getting a triple kill. Blink in and Ult. Then Enigma uses pulse and his ult. Then any AoE should finish them off (this is great for SK, as well as QoP, WD, Pit Lord, Levithan, Treat, THD, Puck, the list goes on and on). Not much anyone can do (unless they ward?, activate BKB in time, Linkens? It's hard to pull things like BKB or a windwalk off).
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:25 pm

riv_01d wrote:
Thats why I think Magnus is so imbalanced. Once he gets blink dagger, any 3+ man push by the other team will result in you getting a triple kill. Blink in and Ult. Then Enigma uses pulse and his ult. Then any AoE should finish them off (this is great for SK, as well as QoP, WD, Pit Lord, Levithan, Treat, THD, Puck, the list goes on and on). Not much anyone can do (unless they ward?, activate BKB in time, Linkens? It's hard to pull things like BKB or a windwalk off).

True, once saw a replay of a guy doing that with magnus, he would blink, ulti and kill entire team with his cleave.

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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:33 am

after a couple more non pub games today i am really starting to agree, watched a couple pro replays and really its all aoe ults/synergy thats what's winning these games like riv said. The aoe ults will setup ur team for the rest of the fight. Like we were playin a 3v3 today and tide would basically win the fight for their team with his ult. Now its less effective in 5v5 but aoe stuns/disables like root and tide or warlock and enig just well they win. Then it comes down to timing really. The only probelm i see for a team like that is early game because they will have troubles lanning well.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:26 am

Depends on the lane. I don't know if you ever played with Mark as Sand King/stunner.

I'll post up a replay for an awesome Sand King strategy this evening.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:54 pm

purger202 wrote:
after a couple more non pub games today i am really starting to agree, watched a couple pro replays and really its all aoe ults/synergy thats what's winning these games like riv said. The aoe ults will setup ur team for the rest of the fight. Like we were playin a 3v3 today and tide would basically win the fight for their team with his ult. Now its less effective in 5v5 but aoe stuns/disables like root and tide or warlock and enig just well they win. Then it comes down to timing really. The only probelm i see for a team like that is early game because they will have troubles lanning well.

Most teams will only really have 2-3 AoE ult heroes. Then they finish the team off with a great laner like QoP for lane dominance, Nerub to counter any dual stuns or nukers, PoTM for lane dominance again, even Warlock is a terrific solo. If they really need lane control early on they could get viper or something.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:51 pm

riv_01d wrote:
purger202 wrote:
after a couple more non pub games today i am really starting to agree, watched a couple pro replays and really its all aoe ults/synergy thats what's winning these games like riv said. The aoe ults will setup ur team for the rest of the fight. Like we were playin a 3v3 today and tide would basically win the fight for their team with his ult. Now its less effective in 5v5 but aoe stuns/disables like root and tide or warlock and enig just well they win. Then it comes down to timing really. The only probelm i see for a team like that is early game because they will have troubles lanning well.

Most teams will only really have 2-3 AoE ult heroes. Then they finish the team off with a great laner like QoP for lane dominance, Nerub to counter any dual stuns or nukers, PoTM for lane dominance again, even Warlock is a terrific solo. If they really need lane control early on they could get viper or something.

ya nerub is fucking great at countering plus he's not awful lane control.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:03 pm

Tonight we played against GITW again and lost, but every game we play it is noticeable how much our performance as a team is improving. We just need to keep practicing and fix some minor things. The idea is there, we just need to fix a couple of details and practice it. Even they said that every game we play against them we doing much better really fast. More practice is all we need.

Good game everyone today.

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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:12 pm

replay?

it should be saved in your wc3 folder as "last replay," even if you didn't save it.
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:14 pm

arcthefinger. wrote:
replay?

it should be saved in your wc3 folder as "last replay," even if you didn't save it.

I dont think we can upload replays to the forum, already tried. Purger has a web site where he uploaded a previous replay before. I will message him or darth to take care of it.

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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:56 am

Renovatio. wrote:
arcthefinger. wrote:
replay?

it should be saved in your wc3 folder as "last replay," even if you didn't save it.

I dont think we can upload replays to the forum, already tried. Purger has a web site where he uploaded a previous replay before. I will message him or darth to take care of it.
There are websites that you can upload from...yousendit is one of them, I think.

I also have some webspace from school that I can use if you email me the replay.

Karim
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PostSubject: Re: We lost scrim... why?   Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:53 am

Yeah, we can try that. I tried uploading it to youtube but file is not supported and don't know how to edit anything.

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